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[Disarmo] Due caccia ucraini hanno abbattuto il volo MH17 - Fwd: [JUGOINFO]
- Subject: [Disarmo] Due caccia ucraini hanno abbattuto il volo MH17 - Fwd: [JUGOINFO]
- From: Jure Ellero LT <glry at ngi.it>
- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 22:43:32 +0200
-------- Messaggio Inoltrato -------- Oggetto: [JUGOINFO] Due caccia ucraini hanno abbattuto il volo MH17 Data: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 13:03:56 +0200 Mittente: 'Coord. Naz. per la Jugoslavia' jugocoord at tiscali.it (deutsch / english / italiano) * Due caccia ucraini hanno abbattuto il volo MH17* / / /e per non doverlo dire da molti giorni la RAI-TV nasconde le cronache dall'Ucraina/ / / *1) OSCE Monitors Identify “Shrapnel and Machine Gun-Like Holes” indicating Shelling (**Michel Chossudovsky)* *2) Schockierende Analyse: Dieses Flugzeug wurde nicht von einer Rakete getroffen (**Peter Haisenko)* *3) Evidence Is Now Conclusive: Two Ukrainian Government Fighter-Jets Shot Down Malaysian Airlines MH17 (**Eric Zuesse)* *4) VIDEO: NDR Extra 3 zum Ukraine Krieg / **German TV show ridicules 'evidence' of Russian involvement in Ukraine crisis* * * * * --- Von Y&K Trümpy: Oggetto: MH17 nicht von Rakete sondern von Kampfjet abgeschossen Data: 10 agosto 2014 15:54:30 CEST Die ukrainische Armee erschwert und verzögert mit Angriffen auf die Volksmilizen, welche das Gebiet der Absturzstelle der malaysischen MH17 kontrollieren, die internationalen Aufklärungsarbeiten an den Wrackteilen der Passagiermaschine. Es mehren sich aber schon seit längerem die Hinweise, dass das Flugzeug von einem ukrainischen Kampjet abgeschossen wurde, siehe untenstehende Links. Das wird die USA jedoch nicht daran hindern, mit im besten Fall zusammengestrickten "Beweisen" aus Sozialen-Netzwerken des Internets, die ostukrainischen Volksmilizen für den Abschuss verantwortlich zu machen und gegen Russland weitere Sanktionen zu verhängen. Im Gegensatz zu den Russen haben die Amerikaner keine Daten ihrer eigenen Aufklärungssatelliten veröffentlicht, auch die Auswertung der Black-Boxes bleibt weiter unter Verschluss. --- More links: *The Video Report Deleted by the BBC* - ENG SUBS (25/lug/2014) VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUvK5m2vxro *Russische Radardaten: Ukrainischer Kampjet unweit von Boeing gesichtet* (21.7.14) http://de.ria.ru/society/20140721/269068827.html *Moskau: Boeing kurz vor Absturz wurde von ukrainischem Kampfjet begleitet* (21.7.14) http://de.ria.ru/society/20140721/269070446.html US spy plane incident raises more questions over MH17 crash (WSWS, 6 August 2014) http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08/06/side-a06.html Ucraina: Volo MH17 abbattuto da un cannoncino 30mm Osservatore Osce: ‘Aereo abbattuto da caccia ucraino’ / MH17: Pockmarks look like from very, very heavy machine gun fire, says first OSCE monitor on-scene https://it.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/crj-mailinglist/conversations/messages/8077 PTV News 2 agosto 2014 – Volo MH17: la parola all’OSCE Il network canadese CBC ha intervistato un inviato dell’OSCE, Michael Bociurkiw. Bociurkiw, un canadese di origine ucraina, è stato tra i primi al mondo ad arrivare sul sito del disastro, quando il relitto del Boeing 777 era ancora fumante. Cosa ha notato l’inviato della missione internazionale dell’OSCE arrivato sul posto? http://www.pandoratv.it/?p=1639 VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4aL1BIDuYo VIDEO: Osservatore Osce: ‘Aereo abbattuto da caccia ucraino’ Lombardia Russia 3/ago/2014 - In questo video la testimonianza di un osservatore dell’OSCE – un canadese di origine ucraina. Il video mostra le foto della fusoliera dell’aereo malese ‘caduto’ nell’Ucraina orientale, con inequivocabili fori di proiettili sparati da una mitragliatrice e le conclusioni dell’osservatore. Entrambe confermano la versione russa: un aereo Sukhoi-25 ucraino che seguiva da vicino il Boeing malese abbattuto. VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIaHKJVRLes === 1 === Auf Deutsch: Prof. Michel Chossudovsky von Global Research in Kanada geht davon aus, dass MH17 nicht mit einer Rakete, sondern von einem Kampfjet abgeschossen wurde: http://www.luftpost-kl.de/luftpost-archiv/LP_13/LP11914_070814.pdf --- http://www.globalresearch.ca/support-mh17-truth-osce-monitors-identify-shrapnel-like-holes-indicating-shelling-no-firm-evidence-of-a-missile-attack/5394324 “Support MH17 Truth”: OSCE Monitors Identify “Shrapnel and Machine Gun-Like Holes” indicating Shelling. No Evidence of a Missile Attack. Shot Down by a Military Aircraft? By Prof *Michel Chossudovsky* Global Research, July 31, 2014 /According to the report of German pilot and airlines expert Peter Haisenko, the MH17 Boeing 777 was not brought down by a missile./ /What he observed from the available photos were perforations of the cockpit: / **The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: *The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes.* The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are *the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile.*(Revelations of German Pilot: Shocking Analysis of the “Shooting Down” of Malaysian MH17. “Aircraft Was Not Hit by a Missile” <http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111> /Global Research, //July 30, 2014)/ Based on detailed analysis Peter Haisenko<http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111>reached
the conclusion that *the MH17 was not downed by a missile attack:
*
This aircraft was not hit by a missile in the central portion. The
destruction is limited to the cockpit area. Now you have to factor
in that this part is constructed of specially reinforced material
*The OSCE Mission*
It is worth noting that the initial statements by OSCE observers (July
31) broadly confirm the findings of Peter Haisenko:
Monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in
Europe reported that*shrapnel-like holes were found in two separate
pieces of the fuselage* of the ill-fated Malaysia Airlines
<http://quotes.wsj.com/MY/MAS> aircraft that *was believed to have
been downed by a missile in eastern Ukraine.*
Michael Bociurkiw of the OSCE group of monitors at his daily
briefing described part of the plane’s fuselage dotted with
*“shrapnel-like, almost machine gun-like holes.”*He said the damage
was inspected by Malaysian aviation-security officials .(Wall Street
Journal
<http://online.wsj.com/articles/mh17-pieces-with-shrapnel-like-holes-osce-says-1406230555>,
July 31, 2014)
The monitoring OSCE team has not found evidence of a missile fired from
the ground as conveyed by official White House statements. As we recall,
the US ambassador to the UN Samantha Power stated –pointing a finger at
Russia– that the Malaysian MH17 plane was “likely downed by a
surface-to-air missile operated from a separatist-held location”:
The team of international investigators with the Organisation for
Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) *are uncertain if the
missile used was fired from the ground as US military experts have
previously suggested, *the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) reported.
(Malay Mail online,
<http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/mh17-investigators-say-machine-gun-like-holes-on-wreckage-suggest-missile-f#sthash.MYY6IwFE.dpuf>emphasis
added)
The initial OSCE findings tend to dispel the claim that a BUK missile
system brought down the plane.
Evidently, inasmuch as the perforations are attributable to shelling, a
shelling operation conducted from the ground could not have brought down
an aircraft traveling above 30,000 feet.
*Ukraine Su-25 military aircraft within proximity of MH17*
Peter Haisenko’s study is corroborated by the Russian Ministry of
Defense which pointed to a Ukrainian Su-25 jet in the flight corridor of
the MH17, within proximity of the plane.
Ironically, the presence of a military aircraft is also confirmed by a
BBC report conducted at the crash site on July 23.
<http://www.globalresearch.ca/deleted-bbc-report-ukrainian-fighter-jet-shot-down-mhi7-donetsk-eyewitnesses/5393631>
*All the eyewitnesses interviewed by the BBC confirmed the presence of
a Ukrainian military aircraft flying within proximity of Malaysian
Airlines MH17 at the time that it was shot down: *
*Eyewitness #1*: There were two explosions in the air. And this is
how it broke apart. And [the fragments] blew apart like this, to the
sides. And when …
*Eyewitness #2*: … And there was another aircraft, a military one,
beside it. Everybody saw it.
*Eyewitness #1*: Yes, yes. It was flying under it, because it could
be seen. It was proceeding underneath, below the civilian one.
*Eyewitness #3*: There were sounds of an explosion. But they were in
the sky. They came from the sky. Then this plane made a sharp
turn-around like this. It changed its trajectory and headed in that
direction [indicating the direction with her hands].
BBC Report below
*[VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUvK5m2vxro ]*
The original BBC Video Report published by BBC Russian Service on July
23, 2014 has since been removed from the BBC archive. In a bitter
irony, The BBC is censoring its own news productions.
*Media Spin*
The media has reported that a surface to air missile was indeed fired
and exploded before reaching its target. It was not the missile that
brought down the plane, it was the shrapnel resulting from the missile
explosion (prior to reaching the plane) which punctured the plane and
then led to a loss of pressure.
According to Ukraine’s National security spokesman Andriy Lysenko in a
contradictory statement, the MH17 aircraft “*suffered massive explosive
decompression after being hit by a shrapnel missile.”* (See IBT,
Australia
<http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/560900/20140729/mh17-downing-russia-rebels-crash-site.htm>)
In an utterly absurd report, the BBC quoting the official Ukraine
statement <http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28532525>says that:
The downed Malaysia Airlines jet in eastern Ukraine suffered an
explosive loss of pressure *after it was punctured by shrapnel from
a missile.*
They say the information came from the plane’s flight data
recorders, which are being analysed by British experts.
However, it remains unclear who fired a missile, with pro-Russia
rebels and Ukraine blaming each other.
Many of the 298 people killed on board flight MH17 were from the
Netherlands.
Dutch investigators leading the inquiry into the crash have refused
to comment on the Ukrainian claims.
*“Machine Gun Like Holes”*
The shrapnel marks should be distinguished from the small entry and exit
holes “most likely that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile” fired
from a military aircraft. These holes could not have been caused by a
missile explosion as hinted by the MSM.
While the MSN is saying that the “shrapnel like holes” can be caused by
a missile (see BBC report above), the OSCE has confirmed the existence
of what it describes as *“machine gun like holes”, without however
acknowledging that these cannot be caused by a missile.*
In this regard, the GSh-302 firing gun operated by an Su-25 is able to
fire 3000 rpm which explains the numerous entry and exit holes.
According to the findings of Peter Haisenko:
<http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111>
If we now consider the armament of a typical SU 25 we learn this:
*It is equipped with a double-barreled 30-mm gun, type GSh-302 /
AO-17A, equipped with: a 250 round magazine of anti-tank incendiary
shells and splinter-explosive shells (dum-dum), arranged in
alternating order. The cockpit of the MH 017 has evidently been
fired at from both sides:* the entry and exit holes are found on the
same fragment of it’s cockpit segment (op cit)
The accusations directed against Russia including the sanctions regime
imposed by Washington are based on a lie.
The evidence does not support the official US narrative to the effect
that the MH17 was shot down by a BUK missile system operated by the DPR
militia.
What next? More media disinformation, more lies?
*See*:
*Revelations of German Pilot: Shocking Analysis of the “Shooting Down”
of Malaysian MH17. “Aircraft Was Not Hit by a Missile”
<http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111>*
/By Peter Haisenko <http://www.globalresearch.ca/author/haisenko>, July 30, 2014/ http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111 === 2 === The original text in English: Revelations of German Pilot: Shocking Analysis of the “Shooting Down” of Malaysian MH17 “Aircraft Was Not Hit by a Missile” By Peter Haisenko, July 30, 2014 http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111 --- http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/schockierende-analyse-zum-abschuss-der-malaysian-mh-017/ http://www.globalresearch.ca/schockierende-analyse-zum-abschuss-der-malaysian-mh17-dieses-flugzeug-wurde-nicht-von-einer-rakete-getroffen/5394154 Schockierende Analyse zum Abschuss der Malaysian MH17: Dieses Flugzeug wurde nicht von einer Rakete getroffen By Peter Haisenko Global Research, July 30, 2014 AnderweltOnline.com <http://AnderweltOnline.com> 26 July 2014 Es will kein Licht ins Dunkel um das Unglück der Malaysian MH 017 kommen. Die Flugschreiber sind in England und werden ausgewertet. Was kann dabei herauskommen? Möglicherweise mehr, als man annehmen möchte. Vor allem der Voicerecorder dürfte interessant sein, wenn man das Bild eines Cockpit-Fragments betrachtet. Als Fachmann für Luftfahrt habe ich mir die Bilder der Wrackteile vorgenommen, die im Internet kursieren. Als erstes war ich erstaunt, wie wenige Fotos von den Wrackteilen mit Google zu finden sind. Alle sind in niedriger Auflösung, bis auf eines: Das Fragment des Cockpits unterhalb des Fensters auf der Kapitänsseite. Dieses Bild ist allerdings schockierend. In Washington hört man mittlerweile Stimmen, die bezüglich MH 017 von einem „möglicherweise tragischen Irrtum/Unfall“ sprechen. Angesichts dieses Bilds wundert mich das nicht. *Ein- und Austrittslöcher von Geschossen im Cockpit-Bereich* Ich empfehle, das kleine Bild rechts anzuklicken. Sie können dieses Foto als PDF in guter Auflösung herunterladen. Das ist notwendig, denn nur so ist zu verstehen, was ich hier beschreibe. Ich rede nicht von Spekulationen, sondern von eindeutigen Fakten: Das Cockpit zeigt Spuren von Beschuss. Man kann Ein- und Austrittslöcher sehen. Der Rand eines Teils der Löcher ist nach ! innen ! gebogen. Das sind die kleineren Löcher, rund und sauber, etwa Kaliber 30 Millimeter. Der Rand der anderen, der größeren und etwas ausgefransten Austrittslöcher ist nach ! außen ! gebogen. Zudem ist erkennbar, dass an diesen Austrittslöchern teilweise die äußere Schicht des doppelten Aluminiums weggefetzt oder verbogen ist – nach außen! Weiterhin sind kleinere Schnitte zu erkennen, alle nach außen gebogen, die darauf hinweisen, dass Splitter die Außenhaut vom Inneren des Cockpits her durchschlagen haben. Die offenen Nieten sind nach außen aufgebogen. Bei Sichtung der verfügbaren Bilder fällt eines auf: Alle Wrackteile der Sektionen hinter dem Cockpit sind weitgehend unversehrt, wenn man davon absieht, dass es sich um Fragmente eines Ganzen handelt. Nur der Cockpit-Teil ist wüst zerstört. Daraus lässt sich eines bereits schließen: Dieses Flugzeug wurde nicht von einer Rakete in der Mitte getroffen. Die Zerstörung beschränkt sich auf den Cockpit-Bereich. Nun muss man wissen, dass dieser Teil aus besonders verstärktem Material gebaut ist. Schließlich muss der Bug des Flugzeugs auch den Aufprall eines großen Vogels bei hoher Geschwindigkeit einigermaßen schadlos überstehen können. Man sieht auf dem Foto, dass in diesem Bereich deutlich stärkeres Aluminium verbaut worden ist als am Rest der Außenhaut. Man erinnere sich an den Absturz der Pan Am über Lockerbie. Das einzige weitgehend unbeschädigte Teil war ein großes Cockpit-Segment. Hier hat zweifelsfrei eine Explosion innerhalb des Flugzeugs stattgefunden. *Panzerbrechender Munitionsmix* Was kann also passiert sein? Russland hat Radaraufzeichnungen veröffentlicht, die mindestens eine ukrainische SU 25 in der nächsten Nähe der MH 017 zeigen. Das korrespondiert mit der Aussage des verschollenen spanischen Controllers, der zwei ukrainische Kampfflugzeuge in der direkten Nähe der MH 017 gesehen hat. Betrachten wir dazu die Bewaffnung der SU 25: Sie ist ausgerüstet mit einer zweiläufigen 30-mm-Kanone, Typ GSch-302 /AO-17A, Kampfsatz: 250 Schuss Panzerbrand- bzw. Splitter-Spreng-Geschosse, die in einer definierten Reihenfolge in einem Gliederzerfallgurt befestigt sind. Das Cockpit der MH 017 ist von zwei Seiten beschossen worden: Ein- und Austrittslöcher auf derselben Seite. Nun stelle man sich vor was passiert, wenn eine Abfolge von Panzerbrand- und Splitter-Spreng-Geschossen das Cockpit trifft, die immerhin so ausgelegt sind, dass sie einen Panzer zerstören können. Die Panzerbrandgeschosse werden teilweise quer durch das Cockpit aus der anderen Seite leicht deformiert wieder austreten. Schließlich ist ihre Durchschlagskraft für eine solide Panzerung ausgelegt. Die Splitter-Spreng-Geschosse aber werden im Cockpit selbst explodieren, so sind sie ausgelegt. Bei der rapiden Feuerfolge der GSch-302 Kanone gibt es folglich in kürzester Zeit eine schnelle Abfolge von Explosionen innerhalb des Cockpit-Bereichs, von denen jede einzelne ausreicht, einen Panzer zu zerstören. *Welcher „Irrtum“ wurde wirklich begangen – und von wem?* Weil der Innenraum eines Verkehrsflugzeugs ein luftdicht verschlossener Raum ist, wird durch diese Explosionen der Druck im Innern des Flugzeugs in Sekundenbruchteilen extrem ansteigen. Dafür ist das Flugzeug nicht gerüstet. Es wird zerplatzen wie ein Luftballon. Mit dieser Erklärung ergibt sich ein schlüssiges Bild. Die weitgehend intakten Fragmente der hinteren Sektionen sind an den Stellen zerbrochen, die aufgrund der Bauart bei extremem Überdruck am ehesten auseinanderbrechen werden. Das Bild des weit zerstreuten Trümmerfelds und das brutal beschädigte Cockpit-Segment passen dazu. Weiterhin zeigt ein Flügelsegment Spuren eines Streifschusses, der in Verlängerung direkt zum Cockpit führt. Interessanterweise musste ich feststellen, dass sowohl das hochaufgelöste Foto des Cockpit-Segments als auch das vom Streifschuss am Flügel mittlerweile aus Google-Images entfernt worden sind. Man findet praktisch überhaupt keine Bilder mehr von den Wrackteilen, außer rauchenden Trümmern. Folgt man den Stimmen aus Washington, die von einem „möglicherweise tragischen Irrtum/Unfall“ sprechen, bleibt nur noch die Frage, welcher „Irrtum“ hier begangen worden sein könnte. Ich begebe mich jetzt nicht in den Bereich der Spekulationen, gebe aber folgendes zu bedenken: Die MH 017 ist in ihrer Lackierung verwechselbar mit der des russischen Präsidenten. Beide tragen die Farben der russischen Trikolore. Die Maschine mit Putin an Bord befand sich zur selben Zeit in der Nähe der MH 017, wenn man „Nähe“ mit Fliegeraugen betrachtet: etwa 200 bis 300 Kilometer. Dazu nehmen wir noch die Aussage der Frau Timoschenko, sie wolle Putin am liebsten mit einer Kalaschnikow erschießen. Aber das ist pure Spekulation. Der Beschuss des Cockpits der MH 017 nicht. === 3 === http://www.globalresearch.ca/evidence-is-now-conclusive-two-ukrainian-government-fighter-jets-shot-down-malaysian-airlines-mh17-it-was-not-a-buk-surface-to-air-missile/5394814 Evidence Is Now Conclusive: Two Ukrainian Government Fighter-Jets Shot Down Malaysian Airlines MH17. It was Not a ‘Buk’ Surface to Air Missile By Eric Zuesse Global Research, August 04, 2014 /We’ll go considerably farther than has yet been revealed by the professional intelligence community, to provide the actual evidence that conclusively shows that (and how) the Ukrainian Government shot down the Malaysian airliner, MH-17, on July 17th./ The latest report from the intelligence community was headlined on August 3rd by Robert Parry, “Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts,”<http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/03/flight-17-shoot-down-scenario-shifts/> and
he revealed there that,
“Contrary to the Obama administration’s public claims
blaming eastern Ukrainian rebels and Russia for the shoot-down
of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, some U.S. intelligence analysts have
concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and
that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame, according
to a source briefed on these findings. This judgment — at odds with
what President Barack Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry have
expressed publicly — is based largely on the absence of U.S.
government evidence that Russia supplied the rebels with a Buk
anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian
jetliner flying at 33,000 feet, said the source, who spoke on
condition of anonymity.”
It’s actually based on lots more than that; it’s based not on an absence
of evidence, but on positive proof that the Ukrainian Government shot
the plane down, and even proving how it was done. You will see this
proof, right here, laid out in detail, for the first time.
The reader-comments to my July 31st article, “First Examination of
Malaysian MH-17 Cockpit Photo Shows Ukraine Government Shot that Plane
Down,”
<http://www.opednews.com/articles/First-Examination-of-Malay-by-Eric-Zuesse-Activism-Anti-War_Obama-Administration_Peace_War_President-Barack-Obama-POTUS-140731-170.html>
provided
links and leads to independent additional confirmatory evidence backing
up that account, of retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko’s
reconstruction of this event, to such an extent that, after exploring
the matter further, I now feel confident enough to say that the evidence
on this matter is, indeed, “conclusive,” that Haisenko is right.
Here is all of that evidence, which collectively convinces me that
Haisenko’s conclusion there, is, indeed, /the only one that can even
possibly explain this wreckage:/
“There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been
really pockmarked with what almost looks like machine-gun fire, very
very strong machine-gun fire.”
This remarkable statement comes not from Haisenko, but from one of the
first OSCE investigators who arrived at the scene of the disaster.
Go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ze9BNGDyk4 and you will see it.
That youtube snippet in an interview with Michael Bociurkiw, comes from
a man who is
“a Ukrainian-Canadian monitor with the Organization for Security and
Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), [who] has seen up close … the crash
site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. Bociurkiw and one other
colleague were the first international monitors to reach the
wreckage after the jet was shot down over a rebel-held region of
eastern Ukraine July 17.”
That description of him is from the lead-in to the full interview with
him, at the 29 July 2014 CBC news article, “Malaysia Airlines MH17:
Michael Bociurkiw talks about being first at the crash site.”
<http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-michael-bociurkiw-talks-about-being-first-at-the-crash-site-1.2721007>
The
far briefer youtube clip shows only what’s presented on 6:10-6:24 of this CBC interview with Bociurkiw. The CBC reporter in the video precedes the interview by announcing, “The wreckage was still smoldering when a small team from the OSCE got there.” So: he had to have been there really fast. “No other officials arrived for days,” she said. So: one of the two first international monitors on-site saw conclusive evidence that the Malaysian plane had been hit by “very very strong machine-gun fire,” not by ground-based missile-fire. Peter Haisenko’s reconstruction of the downing of that airliner, was here being essentially confirmed /on-site by one of the two first OSCE international monitors to arrive on-site, while the wreckage was still smoldering/. That’s as close to virgin, untouched evidence and testimony as we’ll ever get. Unlike a black-box interpretation-analysis long afterward by the Russian Government, or by the British Government, or by the Ukrainian Government, each of which governments has a horse in this race, this testimony from Bociurkiw is raw, independent, and comes from one of the two earliest witnesses to the physical evidence. That’s powerfully authoritative testimony, and it happens to confirm pilot Peter Haisenko’s theory of what happened. Bociurkiw arrived there fast because he negotiated with the locals for the rest of the OSCE team, who were organizing to come later: Bociurkiw speaks the local languages there — Ukrainian and Russian. Furthermore, this is hardly testimony from someone who is supportive of the anti-Government rebels. Earlier, there had been this, http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/3492, which transcribed the BBC’s interview with Bociurkiw on July 22nd. He said then: “We’re observing that major pieces, and I’m looking at the tail fin as I said, and then there’s also the rear cone section of the aircraft, they do look different than when we first saw them, … two days ago.” So, he had arrived on-scene July 20th at the latest. (Neither the BBC nor the CBC, both of which interviewed him, were sufficiently professional to have reported the specific date at which Bociurkiw had actually arrived on-scene, but, from this, it couldn’t have been after July 20th. The downing had occurred July 17th. If some of the debris was still “smoldering” as the CBC journalist said, then maybe he had arrived there even earlier.) The youtube snippet of Bociurkiw came to me via a reader-comment to my article, from Bill Johnson, after which I web-searched the youtube clip for its source and arrived then at the 29 July 2014 CBC news article and its accompanying video. Further, there’s this crucial 21 July photo-reconstruction of that cockpit-fragment positioned into place on the aircraft /as it had originally been in that intact-airliner: / https://twitter.com/EzraBraam. (Sometimes that doesn’t work, so here’s another screen of it from someone who copied it <http://i0.wp.com/www.rumormillnews.com/pix7/mh17cockpithit.jpg?w=615>.) Looking at that photo-reconstruction, one can easily tell that the SU-25 or other fighter-jet that was firing into the cockpit from the pilot’s left side didn’t just riddle the area surrounding the pilot with bullets, but that it then targeted-in specifically onto the pilot himself, producing at his location a huge gaping hole in the side of the plane precisely at the place where the pilot was seated. Furthermore, this gaping hole was produced by shooting into the plane, precisely at the pilot, from below and to the pilot’s left, which is where that fighter-jet was located — not from above the airliner, and not from beside it, and /also not from below it/. In other words: this was precise and closely-targeted firing against the pilot himself, not a blast directed broadly against, and aiming to hit, the plane anywhere, to bring it down. Haisenko explained how this penetration of the plane, though it was targeted specifically at the pilot, caused immediately a breaking-apart of /the entire aircraft./ Other readers have responded to my news-report about Haisenko’s article<http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/>,
by saying that shrapnel from a Buk missile could similarly have caused those holes into the side of the cockpit. However, that objection ignores another key feature of Haisenko’s analysis. Haisenko said there: “You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likeley that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile. The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes showing shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that … these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent — outwardly!” What this means is that in order to have some of those holes frayed inwardly and the other holes frayed outwardly, there had to have been a second fighter-jet firing into the cockpit from the airliner’s right-hand side. That’s critically important, because no ground-based missile (or shrapnel therefrom) hitting the airliner could possibly have produced firing into the cockpit from /both/ sides of the plane. It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides, that brought the plane down, in that circumstance. This is Haisenko’s main discovery, by his pointing that out. You can’t have projectiles going in both directions — into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides — unless they are coming at the panel from different directions. Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from /both its left side and its right side/. This is what rules out /any/ ground-fired missile. Peter Haisenko posted an extremely high-resolution image from that photo which he used, and it shows unequivocally that some of the bullet-holes were inbound while others of them were outbound: Here it is, viewed very close-up <http://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdf>. Although the fighter jets that were said to have been escorting the Malaysian plane into the war-zone were alleged to be SU-25 planes, a different type might have been used. SU-25s are designed to be flown up to 23,000 feet without an oxygen-mask, but can go much higher if the pilot does wear that mask, which was probably the case here. Of course, an airliner itself is fully pressurized. That pressurization inside the airliner is, moreover, a key part of Haisenko’s reconstruction of this airliner’s downing. Basically, Haisenko reconstructs the airliner’s breaking apart as soon as that hail of bullets opened and released the plane’s pressurization. The specific photo of that cockpit-fragment, which Haisenko had downloaded immediately after the disaster, was removed from the Internet, but other photos of this fragment were posted elsewhere, such as at the British publication (which, like the rest of the Western “news” media is slanted pro-Obama, anti-Putin), on July 21st, headlining their anti-Putin missile-theory bias, “MH17 crash: FT photo shows signs of damage from missile strike.”<http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html#axzz387M3CW00> Their
“reporters” opened with their blatant anti-Russian prejudice:
“The first apparent hard evidence that Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17
was brought down by a surface-to-air missile is emerging from the
crash site in eastern Ukraine, after experts confirmed on Monday
there were signs of shrapnel damage to the aircraft.”
Although they didn’t say in their opener that the “surface-to-air
missile” was from the rebels, they made clear their
pro-Ukrainian-Government anti-Russian bias by saying, “Over the weekend,
western intelligence agencies pointed to mounting evidence that backs
Ukraine’s claim that the aircraft with 298 people on board was shot down
by mistake by pro-Russian separatists and Russian military personnel
with an SA-11 missile launched from a Buk-M1 SAM battery.” Their
stenographers (or as they would say “reporters”) stenographed
(“reported”) that, “Douglas Barrie of the International Institute for
Strategic Studies, said the photographic evidence ‘was consistent with
the kind of damage you would expect to see from the detonation of a high
explosive fragmentation warhead of the type commonly used in a SAM
system’.” No analyst /from the pro-Putin camp/ was interviewed by their
“reporters.” For example, Russia’s Interfax News Service headlined on
July 29th, the same day as the /FT’s/ article, “Boeing’s downing by
Buk missile system unlikely — military expert,” and they stenographed
/their /“expert,” as follows:
/Chief of the Russian Land Forces’ tactical air defense troops Maj.
Gen. Mikhail Krush said he doubts that the Malaysian passenger liner
was brought down by a Buk surface-to-air missile system. “No
one observed a Buk engaging targets in that region on that day,
which provides 95 percent proof that Buk systems were not used in
this concrete case,” the general said in an interview with
the Voyenno-Promyshlenny Kuryer military weekly to be published on
Wednesday [July 30th]. ”This is no more than a theory for now.
However, a guided missile launched by a Buk missile system leaves
behind a specific smoke trail as it flies, like a comet. In daylight
this trail can be clearly seen within a radius of 20-25 kilometers
from the missile system. It cannot remain unnoticed. There are
no eyewitnesses to confirm there was any. No one reported a launch.
This is one thing,” he said. “Second. The holes left by the strike
elements on the Boeing’s outer skin indicate that the warhead blew
up from below and sideways. A Buk missile strikes the target from
above,” he said. “The damage done to the plane suggests that a
different missile was used. Our guidance method is a zoom, when the
missile strikes the target from above covering it with a thick cloud
of fragments” the general said. “I cannot state categorically,
guided by this data, but I can suggest, using my experience, that it
was not a Buk missile that hit the Boeing,” the expert said./
General Krush’s statement can fit with Haisenko’s and with Bociurkiw’s,
but not with /FT’s/ or the rest of the “reporters” (just consider them
as rank propagandists) in the West.
U.S. President Barack Obama has been saying all along that Russia –
against which he is actually systematically building toward war
<http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/06/indications-u-s-planning-nuclear-attack-russia.html>
–
and not Ukraine (which he’s using as his chief vehicle to do that<http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/06/really-need-re-start-cold-war.html>),
is to blame for this airliner-downing. Previously, he had said that the snipers who in February had killed many people at the Maidan demonstrations against the pro-Russian Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych came from Yanukovych’s State Security Service and not from the far-right political parties that were trying to bring Yanukovych down and that Obama’s agent Victoria Nuland selected to run the new Ukrainian government. But that too was an Obama lie <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-RyOaFwcEw>. He lies a lot, and it’s just about the only type of statement he ever makes about Russia, and about Ukraine: lies. If someone wants to verify how rabidly the U.S. Government lies, and has lied since at least the time of George W. Bush’s Presidency, just look at this video, by starting at 16:00 on it and going to 42:00 on it <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddz2mw2vaEg>, and you will be shocked. (It pertains to lies by Bush that are still being covered up by Obama.) And when you further consider the many obvious questions it points out, which U.S. “news” media refused to ask and still refuse to ask about the matter, you’ll recognize that we are being lied to systematically and with utter contempt of the public, and with no respect for the public’s right to know the truth, even regarding massive history like that. It’s really brutal. Ignorant “reporters” sometimes slip-up and include, in their stenography, facts that actually support the opposite side’s narrative of events and that discredit their own story-line. Such has been the case, for example, in the /Financial Times/ piece, which included the statement that, “Anti-aircraft missiles are not designed to score a direct hit as they are targeted to destroy fast, agile fighter jets. Instead, they are designed to explode within about 20m of their target, sending out a cloud of red hot metal to increase the chances of inflicting as much damage as possible.” But rather than merely “a cloud of red hot metal,” what actually brought down this plane was what Haisenko has said brought it down: magazines-full of carefully targeted rapid-fire machine-gun bullets pouring forth from below the plane, at both its left and right. This was a Ukrainian Government job. It was close-in <https://twitter.com/EzraBraam>. (No missile fired from the distance more than 30,000 feet down to the ground could have been that precise to target the pilot rather than the far larger target of the plane’s entire body.) It came from the Government that Obama installed there in February <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-RyOaFwcEw> and that’s now carrying out an ethnic-cleansing campaign against the residents in Ukraine’s southeast<http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/06/ukraine-international-war-criminal-obama-putin-2.html>,
the places where Yanukovych’s voters live (to the extent that they still can and do live<http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/obama-definitely-caused-malaysian-airliner-downed/>).Compare
that picture with the following one, which I take from a propaganda-site for the U.S. regime<https://www.metabunk.org/threads/mh17-evidence-a-missile-was-used-shrapnel-etc.3997/>,
and so which is intended instead to support the Administration’s line on this, certainly not Haisenko’s explanation of how the airliner was downed, though it actually supports Haisenko’s case: As you can see there, a plane that’s hit by a ground-fired missile, instead of by bullets fired from an attack-plane only a few yards away, has the damage spread rather widely over its body, not concentrated into a tiny area, such as to where the plane’s pilot is seated. Certainly, the contrast between that photo and this one<http://i0.wp.com/www.rumormillnews.com/pix7/mh17cockpithit.jpg?w=615> is enormous.
Furthermore, note also that the shrapnel damage to that plane comes from above it, which is where missiles usually hit a plane from, releasing their shrapnel from above, down onto the plane. By contrast, the hail of bullets to the Malaysian plane’s pilot came from below the plane, aiming upward at the cockpit, from both sides of the cockpit. As regards whether there were actually two fighter jets firing into the Malaysian airliner or only one, a proponent of the single-jet hypothesis, Bill Johnson, posted as a reader-comment to my article on August 4th<http://www.opednews.com/articles/Evidence-2-Ukrainian-Gove-by-Eric-Zuesse-Activism-Anti-War_Impeachment_Obama-Administration_President-Barack-Obama-POTUS-140803-579.html?show=votes#allcomments>,
a series of extreme close-ups of the side-panel, in which he inferred
that the explanation of the apparent left-side (pilot-side) bullets was
probably the shape of the bullets. I then asked him why he declined to
accept the possible existence of two jets. He said,
“from what I could find Russian military radar detected only one
Ukrainian fighter jet, not two. I have looked and looked for any
type of radar confirmation of a second fighter jet and can not find
it.”
However, the most virginal, earliest, online evidence concerning the matter was on July 17th, within moments of the downing, headlined in the subsequent English translation, “Spanish Air Controller @ Kiev Borispol Airport: Ukraine Military Shot Down Boeing #MH17,”<http://slavyangrad.org/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/> and
it included, “@spainbuca’s TWITTER FEED,” which included his
observation, only minutes after the downing, “2 jet fighters flew very
close” to the plane. Furthermore, immediately before that, he had
tweeted, “The B777 plane flew escorted by Ukraine jet fighter until 2
minutes before disappearing from the radar.” So, perhaps the second jet
appeared distinct to him only immediately prior to the downing.
The accompanying news-report, also on July 17th, said:
“This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and
was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil
air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after
a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over
the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board. The
air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing
it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military
was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately
confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.” If
this is true, then the radar-records upon the basis of which those
tweets had been sent were “confiscated.”
The best evidence is consistent that those bullet-holes came from two
directions not from one. What is virtually certain, however, is that at
least one jet fighter was close up and shot down the Malaysian plane.
The rest of the tweets from @spainbucca, there, described the immediate
hostility of the Kiev authorities toward him on the occasion, and his
speculations as to who was behind it all.
And the European Union has been playing along with this hoax
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b67OGUsQC44#t=335>. (If you still have
any further doubts that it’s a hoax, just click onto that link and
look.) And the mass of suckers in the West believe that hoax
<http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=81d_1403227131>: it’s succeeding to stir
a fever for war, instead of a fever to get rid of our own leaders who
are lying us into a war that will benefit only the West’s aristocrats,
while it inflicts massive physical and economic harms against everyone
else – as if it were the invasion of Iraq except multiplied in this case
a thousand-fold, especially with nuclear weapons possibly at the end of it.
If we had a free press, the news media would be ceaselessly asking
President Obama why he doesn’t demand accountability against the
Ukrainian Government for their massacre perpetrated on May 2nd inside
the Trade Unions Building in Odessa
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4dJRnI-X8Q>, where that newly
Obama-installed <http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=81d_1403227131> regime’s
peaceful opponents were systematically trapped and then burned alive,
which the Obama-installed Ukrainian Government has refused to
investigate (much less to prosecute). Basically: Obama had sponsored the
massacre
<http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/key-man-behind-may-2nd-odessa-ukraine-trade-unions-building-massacre-many-connections-white-house.html>.
So,
our “news” media ignore it, even though it started this civil war on Russia’s doorstep<http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/06/ukraines-civil-war-global-historical-importance.html>, and
thereby re-started the Cold War, as Obama had intended that massacre (/his/ massacre, and /his/ subsequent ethnic cleansing) to do. (Similarly, the “news” media, though all of them receive my articles by email, virtually all refuse to publish them, because I won’t let them control what I find and report.) And while Obama leads this Republican policy<http://www.opednews.com/articles/Obama-Leads-Republicans-W-by-Eric-Zuesse-Activism-Anti-War_Congress-Democrats_Nuclear-Weapons_Obama-Administration-140723-514.html>,
and Vice President Dick Cheney’s top foreign-policy advisor Victoria Nuland actually runs it for Obama, congressional Democrats are just silent about it, and do not introduce impeachment of this fake “Democratic” hyper-George W. Bush neo-conservative President<http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/republicans-rule-obama-impeachment-democrats-well-see.html>,
who’s a “Democrat” /in rhetoric only/ – and though Obama’s policy in this key matter threatens the entire world <http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/06/indications-u-s-planning-nuclear-attack-russia.html>. A reader-comment to an earlier version of this news report and analysis objected to my identifying Obama as a Republican-in-”Democratic”-sheep’s clothing, and said: “They may be rethug policies in origin but they are decidedly BI-PARTISAN to anyone who wants to admit FACTS. The democratic party you all think still exists is DEAD and only exists in your brain (the part that doesn’t accept reality).” However, U.S. Senate bill 2277, which invites Obama to provide direct U.S. military support to the Obama-installed Ukrainian regime, has 26 sponsors, and all of them are Republican U.S. Senators. Democratic Senators, by contrast, are just silent on Obama’s turn toward nazism (or racist — in this case anti-ethnic-Russian racist – fascism); the Senate’s Democrats aren’t seeking for it to be stepped up. This is a Republican policy, which congressional Democrats are simply afraid to oppose. Any realistic person knows that however far right Obama turns, the /overt/ Republican Party will turn even farther to the right, because they have to be to his right in order for them to be able to win Republican primaries and retain their /own/ Party’s nomination. Just because Obama’s game of moving the American political center as far to the right as he can move it is succeeding, doesn’t mean that the Democratic Party itself should end. It instead means that progressives need to take the Democratic Party over, just like conservatives took the Republican Party over with Reagan. There is no other hope. If a Democrat in the U.S. House will simply introduce an impeachment resolution against Barack Obama, then the right-wing takeover of the Democratic Party might finally end, and the world might yet be saved, because the Democratic Party itself could then reject Obama as being a fake “Democrat,” a Democrat-in-rhetoric-only. It could transform American politics — and American politics needs such a transformation, which would move the Democratic Party back to progressivism, more like the FDR Democratic Party was, so that Republican politicians would no longer need to be so fascist as they now have become (and as they now need to /be/ in order to be able to win their /own/ Party’s nomination). If Democrats fail to renounce the conservatism of Obama and of the Clintons, then the Party will end, and needs to be replaced, just like the Republican Party replaced the Whig Party immediately before the Civil War. Nazism has become today’s slavery-type issue – it’s beyond the pale, and Obama’s installation and endorsement of it in Ukraine is like James Buchanan’s endorsement of slavery was during the 1850s: either the Democratic Party will become the progressive party, or else the Democratic Party is over. But that’s just my own theory of how Obama’s frauds might yet be able to be overcome and defeated, if they still can be; it’s not part of my presentation of the explanation of what brought down the Malaysian airliner, which has been an open case since July 17th, and which is now a closed case. This is past history, not future. The present news story is being circulated free of charge or copyright to all “news” media in the English-speaking world, in the perhaps vain hope that the cover-ups of our leaders’ constant lies will cease soon enough to avoid a World War III, even though communism is long since gone from Russia and so the ideological excuse wouldn’t make any sense here. This insanity <http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/profits-ukraines-war.html> is actually all about aristocratic conquest, like World War I was. It’s not for the benefit of the public /anywhere/. Silence about it (by “Democrats,” and the “news” media) is a scandal, which needs to stop. The real Democratic Party (the Party of FDR, who loathed and despised nazis — and even mere fascists — yet today Obama installs nazis into Power in Ukraine) must be restored, and a real news media needs to become established in America. Even Republicans need it, because the very idea of “victory” in a nuclear war<http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/61508/keir-a-lieber-and-daryl-g-press/the-rise-of-us-nuclear-primacy> is
a vicious fantasy <http://climate.envsci.rutgers.edu/pdf/ToonRobockTurcoPhysicsToday.pdf>. It is a dangerous lie <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8kXQb8MkIk>, though there are some people who find it a very profitable one <http://rinf.com/alt-news/featured/profits-ukraines-war/>. And time might be short — let’s hope not already /too/<http://www.infowars.com/polls-show-mutual-hostility-soars-between-russians-and-americans/>
short. After all, Obama’s hoax of having won from Europe the stepped-up economic sanctions against Russia after the government that Obama had installed in Ukraine downed the Malaysian plane and successfully blamed it on “Russian aggression,” is very encouraging to him. And European leaders know <http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=81d_1403227131> that Obama’s entire operation is a very bloody fraud<http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/america-guilty-dont-prosecute-obama.html> (read
the phone-transcript there — it’s a stunner). So, they certainly won’t save the world from it. It’s up to us. === 4 === *VIDEO: NDR Extra 3 zum Ukraine Krieg (6.8.14)* *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blm_aJlVMIw* http://rt.com/news/179288-german-show-ukraine-evidence-ridiculed/ *German TV show ridicules 'evidence' of Russian involvement in Ukraine crisis* Published time: August 10, 2014 The tenacity of Western attempts to give the Ukrainian crisis an explicitly anti-Russian slant has been noted by a German political satire show, which ridiculed the apparent manner the United States presents its evidence. The host of Extra 3<http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/extra_3/Die-einzige-Satiresendung,sendung265176.html>,
the comedy show, got the program going with a few pieces of 'evidence': a US-photographed satellite image that supposedly depicts Russian complicity in cross-border fire with Ukraine, then a picture that appeared to be drawn by a child with color crayons. Christian Ehring pulled no punches when sharing his frank belief that the coverage of the Ukrainian crisis by the Western media has been full of holes since its start in February. /“Mr. President!”/ he said, impersonating a White House staffer rushing to bring evidence to President Obama – /“I’m pleased to inform you that we finally have evidence! …I apologize, this is a picture my daughter drew… oh, here it is: I drew this one myself!”/ Ehring proclaimed. /“Really, that’s their only proof? This picture? The American and the West have hundreds of agents in eastern Ukraine. What are they doing there? Keeping an eye on those who violate parking rules in the center of Donetsk?”/ he added. Another thing that got the satirical treatment was the situation around the Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 crash near Donetsk in conflict-ridden eastern Ukraine. /“Nobody knows what really happened to MH17 flight,”/ Ehring stressed. /“Was there another plane in the air or not? And how could it happen that a passenger jet was flying over a war zone? This region is a ‘powder keg’ – everybody knows that. Even birds of passage dig underground tunnels to avoid flying over eastern Ukraine.”/ /“But the West is absolutely sure that Putin must be stopped. Putin should take our European values for a model,”/ he added. The host remembered the 1988 case of the United States downing an Iranian passenger plane, the Aerobus-300, killing around three hundred people, which prompted the following question: /“Remember those tough economic sanctions imposed on the USA then? No? Neither do I.”/ /“I have a feeling that all sides are trying to use this plane tragedy to their benefit,”/ Ehring stressed. The show then visits a 'spin doctor' who explains how media bias is generated and for what purpose. *VIDEO: NDR Extra 3 zum Ukraine Krieg (6.8.14)* *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blm_aJlVMIw* * * __._,_.___ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inviato da: "Coord. Naz. per la Jugoslavia" <jugocoord at tiscali.it> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Rispondi post su web<https://it.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/crj-mailinglist/conversations/messages/8080;_ylc=X3oDMTJva2EzY2lmBF9TAzk3NDkwNDg3BGdycElkAzE1NzEzMTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAM1NTkwMDIxOTcEbXNnSWQDODA4MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE0MDc3NTQ4NDc-?act=reply&messageNum=8080>
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